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Dan Homerick

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On the topic of used Leafs, I'm actually interested in selling mine soon, but am super hesitant to just offload it to be sold on some dealer's used car lot. The problem I have is that a used Leaf, especially older ones like my 2012, has serious range limitations that a used car salesman simply would not be truthful about. They'd have no way of knowing the true range, and have every incentive to never find out, so that they could instead just advertise the original EPA range figures (which were already a bit optimistic).

I think that at the right price, a used Leaf could be a fantastic purchase for a well-informed consumer with a sufficiently short commute. For a typical, poorly-informed used car buyer, a used Leaf's gimped range is going to offer a terrible first (and possibly last) experience with an EV.

I bought an EV when I did in part to help support a nascent industry. I care enough about it thriving that I don't want to let it's early adopter products unfairly blemish the reputation of it's early mainstream products.
 

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By the way, if people have things they'd like us to look at in front page coverage wrt EVs, this thread is a good place to do that.
I would enjoy a review of the Kia Niro Plugin Hybrid. They have a starting MSRP of $27,900. I think it has a large enough battery to qualify for the full $7500 federal tax credit. If California still has a $2500 credit in place, that makes for a very tempting price for a plugin hybrid with some cargo room.

Personally, I'm looking at selling a CR-V and a Leaf (to a good home) and replacing them with something like a Niro or Pacifica and a Model 3.
 

Dan Homerick

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On the topic of used Leafs, I'm actually interested in selling mine soon, but am super hesitant to just offload it to be sold on some dealer's used car lot. The problem I have is that a used Leaf, especially older ones like my 2012, has serious range limitations that a used car salesman simply would not be truthful about. They'd have no way of knowing the true range, and have every incentive to never find out, so that they could instead just advertise the original EPA range figures (which were already a bit optimistic).

I think that at the right price, a used Leaf could be a fantastic purchase for a well-informed consumer with a sufficiently short commute. For a typical, poorly-informed used car buyer, a used Leaf's gimped range is going to offer a terrible first (and possibly last) experience with an EV.

I bought an EV when I did in part to help support a nascent industry. I care enough about it thriving that I don't want to let it's early adopter products unfairly blemish the reputation of it's early mainstream products.

LeafSpy helps a lot with that, if you're buying a used one. Though not many people know about that outside EV geeks.

What year/where is it/what's the current pack capacity/how much do you want? :) I'm willing to drive and tow for the right deal.
2012/56K miles/Hayward, Calif/9 bars/$2500, maybe?

It has minor cosmetic damage to the rear bumper where someone did a low-speed hit and run, which further discourages the used car lot approach.

I'm not ready to sell yet, though. I want to buy it's replacement first. I'll PM you when I'm actually ready to sell and we can discuss whether it makes sense.
 

Dan Homerick

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holy depreciation, Batman.
I assume that's referring to my Leaf. Ya, it's steep. There's a few things factoring into what I'll let it go for:

1. Utility: What you can do with a 200+ mile freeway range is an order of magnitude more useful than what you can do with a <50 mile freeway range. As the battery has degraded over time, its real-world utility has significantly degraded. I'm factoring that into the price, because I want a price that is genuinely fair to the buyer.

2. Original Price: MSRP for a 2012 Nissan Leaf SL (has a CHAdeMO port) was $37,250. But I actually paid $18K due to some generous dealer incentives and tax credits. I think $18K was a pretty good price for the car, considering both its advantages and limitations. If you consider the price premium that early adopter tech normally carries, it was a steal. While perhaps that "shouldn't" affect the price I'm willing to sell for, in practice, it gets weighed in. Still, if I sell it mid-year, I'm looking at having paid about $235/month. I should have leased.

3. Major "repair" coming. Based on a couple anecdotal reports I've read on the web, I don't have much confidence that the battery will last beyond 100,000 miles without needing replacement, and that's only if you're willing to put up with a more and more restrictive range to eek out as much value as possible. Battery replacement looks to be ~$5,5000 via Nissan dealership, but I haven't researched it thoroughly. Also, I have my doubts about anyone being able to get a new battery in 2020 or so. Unless some 3rd party manufacturer finally steps in and starts making replacement batteries, I'm quite suspicious that you'll be getting a battery from Nissan that's been sitting on a shelf for a few years. Meanwhile, in 2020, there will be scads of much better cars on the market, even on the used market. I don't expect the battery replacement to make economic sense.

Of course, it's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic here. Certainly the people who've gotten to high mileages first are more likely to be regularly fast charging, and charging to 100%, possibly multiple times a day. I've been babying the battery, for the most part, but I think the calendar-age effects will eventually lay waste to any amount of short stroking.

4. To a Good Home: Explained in previous post. I don't want it going to someone who doesn't have a full understanding of what they're buying. But if someone here wants it, I'm willing to make sure the price is right.

@Syonyk Ya, most likely within next year, but not assured. I expect to get a Model 3 midyear, which will put us at 3 cars for two people, which we don't really have room for where we live. I would like to also swap our plain ol' ICE Honda CRV for a plugin hybrid sometime within the year, at which point the Leaf will become an unwelcome houseguest. It's that CRV -> Plugin Hybrid trade that injects the most uncertainty into things. If it looks like 2019 will have a lot better hybrid options available, we may end up keeping the Leaf for a full year.

@Everyone else: Sorry about injecting so much personal stuff into a tech thread. Hopefully some of the depreciation thoughts from a long-time Leaf owner will be of interest, even if details of my selling / buying cars may not be.
 

Dan Homerick

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By the way, if people have things they'd like us to look at in front page coverage wrt EVs, this thread is a good place to do that.

Honda Clarity vs Volt.

Agreed.

In general, I think that plugin hybrids could be a really sweet niche for Ars to specialize in. They're complicated beasts, and would benefit from the sort of tech-heavy review that Ars could write. Would love to see a mix of Nobel Intent level of detail on the tech, but practical buyers guide type analysis for the run-of-the-mill car details. Not necessarily in the same article, but they could be. Explain what battery chemistry is being used, warranty info, thermal management, etc.

A lot of the reviews I've seen from other publications are along the lines of "we're reviewing this car, and by the way there's a plugin version available". I expect that's the narrative that the car manufacturers want, but it's doing a disservice to a really interesting piece of the market.
 

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Dan, what’s the range on your Leaf with 9 bars? For a price like that, it would do a great job getting me to work and back but I don’t really understand their bad system. Of course, I’m a long ways away.

Personally, I have an aversion to the extra complication of an ICE in a Volt even if it is perfectly reliable. I’m just irrationally attached to the idea of a pure EV for me.
It's hard to say what the true range is. I've never driven it all the way to dead, and I'm not really sure how much range is left once the low battery warning kicks on.

What I can say is that about a year ago I made a trip of 45 freeway miles on pretty flat terrain, driven at modest speed, in warm weather, starting from 100% charge. It cut close enough to the limit--as I recall, less than 4 miles range remaining--that I've not been willing to make the trip with the car again.

The thing to keep in mind when considering range of a BEV is the cost of falling short is very high, and the variance in range can be high. Planning to run the battery to 'empty' is sheer stupidity. Thus, you need to take whatever the theoretical range is and cut some 10 miles off (at least), so as to not overly abuse the battery and to not end up stranding yourself somewhere if you get a touch unlucky with a headwind or temperatures or something. If you have 200+ mile range, no big deal. If you have a 45 mile range, then no, you actually have a 35 mile range that you can rely on.

A 35 mile round-trip range is quite limiting.

This is with a Leaf that has been kept between 20% and 80% charge for the vast majority of its charge cycles. It's in the SF Bay area -- you couldn't ask for milder climate in terms of either heat or cold. Syonyk keeps pointing to the Leaf's poor (i.e. none) thermal management. I suspect that the thermals are just one component of it. I don't think they got the additives right to allow for long battery life, regardless of temperature. High temps would kill the batteries within a few years, but even with mild temps I just don't think they're going to last.

Paying $2500 for a car that's going to last 24 months before it's range degrades from "quite limiting" to "unusable" may be acceptable. I think the people paying $6-8K for a used 2011-2012 Leaf are getting fleeced. I think they'll be paying something like $300/month for a car that's gimped from the outset.

The "Lizard" battery--a revised set of additives to improve longevity in hot climates--that was quietly introduced in the 2013 model year will likely fare better. Maybe much, much, much better. But I wouldn't bet on it without supporting evidence.
 

Dan Homerick

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Also I was talking to a friend of mine with a rather large family and he's looking at the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Aside from a few compromises with the hybrid model over the fully loaded standard, you really can't ask for a better use case for a plug-in. We figure that aside from road trips once a month it will likely never need to run its gasoline engine. Hopefully as more millennials start families other car makers will get into that market with either minivans or more likely small SUVs.
There's only three of us in my family, but I've been looking at the Pacifica very closely. I'm looking to replace a Honda CR-V with a PHEV, and there's just not many choices for PHEVs with much luggage space. The CR-V has 36 cf, and we pack it to the gills on most trips, and a bit beyond when going camping. The Pacifica has 32 cf with all seats up, but the whole third row can fold down giving a lot more room very easily. The only other choice, within what I'm willing to pay, is the Mitsubishi Outlander, but that only has 30 cf.

The Pacifica has enough electric range (33 miles) that it will serve as a BEV 95% of the time. Outlander only has 22, which means we'd be dipping into gas a lot more often.

If I wasn't looking for a road-trip car, the Hyundai Ionic is very tempting.
Quite a bit more luggage room than others, good range, and pretty cheap.

Ended up making a spreadsheet comparing all the PHEV options, although the details are pretty tailored to my concerns:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... p=drivesdk
 

Dan Homerick

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So if the manufacturers scale up to produce tens of millions of battery packs a year, what happens to the old packs in 5-10 years?

They can't go in a landfill right? And very little of it is recyclable?
In 5 to 10 years, they are still powering cars.
In 15 to 20 years, they should be re-purposed to store solar power. Power per pound will be down, but weight and size is not as important in a fixed location.
In 25 to 30 years, we need to have mastered how to recycle them.

The first Prius was introduced in 1997, with rudimentary batteries by today's standards. 1/4 of them are still on the factory battery. Corrosion was an issue in the first generation, the second gen (2004 to 2009) has dramatically better battery life, so far. (under 10% failure)

In a CARB state in the US, Toyota warrants them for 150,000 miles or 10 years, if even 5% were failing within that time frame, Toyota would have gone bankrupt. While there is a great deal of paranoia* about batteries, their reliability in hybrids has been good. I hear rumors that in EVs the batteries are pushed harder, I do not give them too much credence, as I heard rumors that my Prius battery was doomed in 5 years as well.

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/wh ... eries.html

*I think paranoia is equal to paid astroturfing by companies not making competitive hybrids and EVs, but that is my tin foil hat theory.
I don't disagree with your conclusions, but your data about Prius batteries is irrelevant. The Prius used an entirely different battery chemistry (NiMH) than are being used in BEVs and PHEVs, and you can't infer from one battery chemistry to another. Even with chemistries that are related enough to fall under the same "Li-Ion" marketing family, it's not appropriate to try to infer about battery life from one member of the family to another. It's often unwise to try to infer between different manufacturers of the same chemistry, due to the outsized importance that low %, proprietary additives have on battery life.
 

Dan Homerick

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There's enough data on tesla and leaf batteries out there.
Yes, and it shows that a 10-year old Tesla battery will have some degradation, but will still be useful, and that a 10-year old LEAF is unlikely to still be on the road. Two different chemistries, two different battery manufacturers, different initial capacities, and different treatment of the battery over its lifetime. And not at all appropriate to generalize from the performance of one car's battery to that of anothers.

I'm hopeful that as more car manufacturers start making BEVs and PHEVs they will be able to benefit from industry-wide improvements in battery manufacturing and chemistries, but I'm not at all willing to bet on it. I think it's quite possible that we'll see a rush of new battery manufacturers enter the market to fulfill battery demand in the 2020-2025 time-frame and that we'll see a whole lot of batteries with excessively short lifetimes as a result.
 

Dan Homerick

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Correct, no Prius older than 2012 has a Li-Ion battery and those that do also show the kind of improvement in technology over time that I mentioned for NiMH.* In 2032 we will know much more about the lifespan of those batteries. Sadly, that leaves room for the nay-sayers to spread rumors that we are all doomed. It is still true that each generation of Prius so far show improved battery life over the generation before. (Even in Gen 4, you can buy NiMH batteries in a Prius Two if you doubt Li-Ion longevity)

*Li-Ion Prius
2012 - 2015 Prius PHV in all markets,
2012 - Present Prius v/Prius+/Prius Alpha in European and Japanese markets,
2016 - Present Prius except Prius Two in the US,
2017 - Present Prius Prime/Prius PHV in all markets.
Toyota is also warrantying these batteries for 150,000 miles or 10 years in CARB states in the US.
Can you provide a source for that claim? From what I've found, Toyota is not warrantying their battery capacity at all.

From Toyota's warranty info for the Prius Prime (pg 16 - emphasis added):
Gradual Capacity Reduction of Traction Battery (Lithium-ion Battery)

Lithium-ion battery capacity (the ability to hold a charge) gradually reduces with time and use. This is a natural characteristic of lithium-ion batteries. The extent at which capacity is reduced changes drastically depending on the environment (ambient temperature, etc.) and usage conditions such as how the vehicle is driven and how the lithium-ion battery is charged. Reduction of lithium-ion battery capacity is NOT covered under warranty. In order to lessen the possibility of capacity reduction, follow the directions listed in the Owner’s Manual under “Capacity Reduction of the Hybrid Battery (Traction Battery).”

There's some talk about covering the "Hybrid System" but that's referring to the power electronics.
 

Dan Homerick

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Short excerpt from UtilityDive:

A group of 44 utilities and trade group Edison Electric Institute sent a letter to the United States House of Representatives asking them to lift the manufacturing cap on the electric vehicle tax credit. Under the cap, only 200,000 of the first EVs from each manufacturer can use the tax credit.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/utilit ... uring-cap/

Unsurprisingly, electric utilities see EV's as a potential goldmine and are trying to lend them support wherever possible.

In slightly related news, in the past year various utilities have done cross-marketing events with carmakers where the utility will help advertise a $10K discount for a specific model of EV. Originally done by Nissan for it's last generation 2017 Leafs, BMW recently did the same gimmick for their i3. They even matched the dollar amount.

Personally, I think the marketing is a bit inappropriate. The discount is being supplied by the auto manufacturers, but it's made to appear as though it's a rebate from the utility. Obviously, the car manufacturers prefer this, since it avoids the brand damage that comes from deeply discounting a model.

I think it's a bit dangerous, in that it advances the narrative that EVs are heavily subsidized, usually by taxpayers, but in this case by utility ratepayers. That's something that clearly gets under the skin of many Republicans, but in this case it simply isn't true. All of the political damage, with none of the actual benefit.
 

Dan Homerick

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I feel like I should be suspicious of the article because this part isn't true:

Under the cap, only 200,000 of the first EVs from each manufacturer can use the tax credit.

200,000 is when the credit phaseout begins, not when the credit ends. It makes me wonder what else in the article might be incorrect information.
:rolleyes: It's a one paragraph summary meant to give context about which tax credit is being discussed to readers who are mostly interested in utility news, rather than EV tax codes. Call me crazy, but I think a little imprecision is allowable in that context.

Besides, when you link through and read the actual letter to the policians, you realize that what is being reported on is pretty well content free. This isn't the utilities making some finely structured argument, it's a short, simple "We support not letting the subsidy run out for these fine, upstanding American companies..." appeal.
 

Dan Homerick

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I don't recall this being posted here before, and it's data-centric enough that I find it Observatory worthy. Bloomberg has a Model 3 VIN tracker that they're using to estimate production rate:
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
At the time of this post, the estimate is 802/week, but a recent blog post notes that their model is slow to react to changes, and that there are signs of a recent surge.

Tesla Motor Club also has their own VIN tracking in the form of a spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =176863077

Note that the sheet has multiple pages. On the "Production" page, their current weekly estimate of 817 falls pretty close to Bloomberg's.

For both trackers, the more reliable number is based on delivered VINs. If you're more interested in production rates than delivery rates (as a leading indicator), then based on NHTSA VIN registrations they've recently jumped up to 1300-1600 a week.

Personally, I don't think that they'll hit their 2500/week estimate by the end of Q2, but it wouldn't shock me if they meet or even exceed it. The interesting thing to me will be if they've managed to bump to a new sustainable rate, and if they've finally got their ducks in a row enough to make large step-wise production increases. If they have, then whether the predicted rate is off by a week or two isn't nearly as important as where the rate goes from there.
 

Dan Homerick

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The 2018 Leaf looks really nice. Old models styling reminded me of lightly modernized ye olde Citroens and Renaults from the 70s. That's not a good thing. ;)

Range 150 miles. Starting at $30K. Next year model supposedly 200 miles.

Hopefully they'll eventually do something about their atrocious battery degradation issues. It appears that when they moved from 24kWh to 30kWh packs, they managed make the situation even worse, something I barely imaged to be possible:

https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-30-kwh-battery-degrading-more-rapidly-than-24-kwh-pack/

At two years of age, the mean rate of decline of SoH of 30 kWh Leafs was 9.9% per annum (95% uncertainty interval of 8.7% to 11.1%; n = 82). This was around three times the rate of decline of 24 kWh Leafs which at two years averaged 3.1% per annum (95% uncertainty interval of 2.9% to 3.3%; n = 201). [emphasis added]

graph.jpg


The battery is the most expensive, most important aspect of an EV. How long that battery lasts is profoundly important, and Nissan has screwed the pooch here. As I recall, they're switching to a new battery supplier as part of moving to the longer range (200+ mile) pack. Hopefully that'll offer some significant improvement because, good lord, they'd be hard pressed to do worse.

Edit: It's noteworthy that the 24 -> 30 kWh transition wasn't just a bump in pack size. According to the paper (pdf):
The chemistry in Leaf batteries was changed from lithium manganese oxide (LMO) in the 24 kWh batteries to nickel manganese cobalt (NMC) in the 30 kWh batteries. (source)
 

Dan Homerick

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I've seen several stories this week that Tesla stock is massively overvalued and that its cash reserves will run out this summer. Has anyone else seen any of this? Is it for real or just more Tesla hate? Or, most probably, somewhere in between?
As much as I have an opinion on this, my understanding is that the topic of Tesla's stock price is out of bounds for the Observatory. Debating whether its cash will run out is similarly out of scope.
 

Dan Homerick

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For those in the US who are eyeing the 200K trigger to begin the tax credit phase-out, I think that it's going to be take the LR model or miss out on the full credit.

I expect 200K to be hit this quarter. Once that is announced, I expect that lots of people who were delaying configuring (waiting for QA to improve, or AWD, or a current lease to expire, etc.) will rush to get delivery of a long range model as soon as possible. While the AWD version may be "available" in July, if Tesla continues to prioritize the LR model then the number of people in line ahead of the AWD will grow as people shift to whatever they can get fastest. Remember, to get the credit it needs to be delivered before the cut-off date, not merely configured.

Personally, I'm expecting the AWD to come in around $5K. With the first step-down in the credit being worth $3750, I think I'll be able to get the LR or the AWD at around the same total price.

The utility of the LR model is higher than AWD for me, so after a lot of waffling back and forth, I think I'm going to try getting a LR ASAP, rather than holding out for a lower priced model.

The fact that I'm getting impatient has nothing to do with it. ;)

Edit: I have a first-day online reservation in the Bay Area, and am a non-owner. I've switched my indicated preference, and have my fingers crossed that I'll receive the configuration email within a month or so.
 

Dan Homerick

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That's easy, if the frunk sensor says the frunk is closed, and it changes to "open" you immediately disable the wipers. If someone manually tries to re-enable the wipers pop up a warning saying that physical damage may occur if the frunk is open, but let them override it if they really want to.

I imagine they’ll go that route eventually, but it’d also have to cover the physical control for the wipers...
I imagine that it's already at the bottom of an issue tracker backlog somewhere. I'd be pretty shocked if it ever made it to the top and anything was ever done to "fix" this. Tesla runs lean, they will always have better things to work on than something like this.
 

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There's a far easier solution to his wishlist item, which is a PHEV.

On a marginally related note, I'm actually looking very hard at dropping my Model 3 reservation in favor of buying a Volt or Hyundai Ionic PHEV, possibly as soon as this weekend. After tax credits (but before sales tax) the Hyundai will only be about $18K. Low 20's for the Volt. The Bolt is in the running too.

I make quite good money, but I just can't convince myself that it's worth an extra $20-30,000 to go from a car that's plenty good enough to one that I'd love (probably).

What if I took that extra money that I would have spent on an optioned up Model 3, and instead used it to subsidize solar panels in someplace like Mexico or India? If I provided just enough funding to tip a solar project from "hmm" to "let's do this!" how many KW would that be? Alternatively, what if I simply donated the difference to an environmental or humanitarian NGO?

Which would make me happier? Putting the money to use for a good cause, or buying a nicer car? Pretty sure it's not going to be the car.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for rewarding Tesla for all they're doing to push energy storage, EVs, and electric semis forward. However, with them being supply constrained, I don't think it matters whether I give them my money, or the next person in line does.

Has anyone here taken a close look at financing solar projects? Building insulation improvements? Surely there's something practical that could be done with low 10's of thousands...
 

Dan Homerick

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There's a far easier solution to his wishlist item, which is a PHEV.

On a marginally related note, I'm actually looking very hard at dropping my Model 3 reservation in favor of buying a Volt or Hyundai Ionic PHEV, possibly as soon as this weekend. After tax credits (but before sales tax) the Hyundai will only be about $18K. Low 20's for the Volt. The Bolt is in the running too.
Is this for the road-trip car you posted about a couple of months ago, to replace a CR-V ?
Wasn't luggage capacity a significant factor? If so, what took the Pacifica & Outlander off the list?
If the Bolt is now an option, what eliminated the Kia Niro PHEV, which is pretty much the same size and has slightly more cargo room?
I'm looking to replace two cars sometime within the next year or so. One is a CR-V, for which I'm still looking at Pacifica or Outlander (heavily leaning towards Pacifica, at the moment). At the time of my last posting, I was pondering getting the eventual Leaf replacement first, and just having 3 cars for a while. I'm back to thinking it makes the most sense to replace the CR-V first and trade/sell it immediately.

It was for replacing the Leaf that I was considering the Bolt / Volt / Ionic PHEV (and now Clarity PHEV as well). With a Pacifica in our fleet, I will probably go for something small, cheap, and efficient, which would put the Ionic pretty near the top of the list, if only it had a bit better electric range. The Niro will get a look too, before I finally pull the trigger.

I just got my invitation for my Model 3 reservation today, actually. It's still a little tempting to splurge, but for the moment I'm holding firm to the conclusion that the Long Range version is more expensive than I'm willing to pay -- especially if I'm already buying another new car this year. Looks like the most practical course will be buy a Pacifica this year, then -- maybe -- wait and see what happens to the federal tax credit for the Model 3 by the time the base model is available. I think there's a reasonable chance the credit will get extended somehow, especially if the blue wave manages to flip the Senate as well as the House, but even if there's no action on that front, I'll probably be able to get a Model 3 in time to catch the credit while it's still $3750. If I miss even that level of credit, then the other brands would become even more appealing (though GM will have lost their credit too).

One factor that still has me looking to a Model 3 over some of the much cheaper options is that I've really enjoyed the Leaf being a pure BEV (no oil changes, barely any maintenance), but I'm really, really skeptical of their battery lives until the manufacturer has some years under their belt with that particular chemistry. At least with Tesla, watching the Jeff Dahn talks has convinced me that they've got some serious eyes on the issue (as well as better thermal control, though I think that's only part of Nissan's problem). I think GM is probably doing fine with the Bolt, but it still feels a bit too early to tell. The Volt is pretty clearly solid, which is encouraging. But if I wait too long hoping the Model 3 timing will work out, then stuff like the Ionic will have a big price advantage over the credit-less GM products, and Hyundai's battery life is still a big question mark.

Or... I just look for the cheapest lease I can find for a low-range compliance car, then in three years time when the lease is up, look for a gently used (but loaded) Model 3. Anyways, that's more then enough stream-of-conscience babble for one post. Too many possibilities, mostly good ones, just ... expensive.
 

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(*) Fiat is the most backward brand of all. Aside from the Fiat 500 electric conversion which is explicitly a US-only compliance car, they have no EVs or plans for EVs at all.
If by EV you strictly mean BEV, yeah. If you include PHEVs under the umbrella of "EV" then there's the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid.
/pedant
 

Dan Homerick

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Speaking of electric bikes, I've been seriously considering getting an electric motorcycle for commuting. If I take the job I'm interviewing for next week, my commute will be 50 mile (80 km) round trip, 85% freeway, and often very congested. There's no workplace charging at the new place, so it's out of range of my 2012 Leaf. I live in California and filtering (lane splitting) is legal here. A motorcycle could potentially cut my commute from 2+ hours a day down to 1.25 hours.

So that's motivation. As for skill, I had a motorcycle learner's permit years ago and my friend taught me to ride, but I never got the actual license. That is to say, I wouldn't be (re)starting the learning process from 0, but I'm pretty green.

As far as I can tell, my best choice would be a 2018 Zero S ZF13.0. They claim an 81 mile range at 70mph, which is sufficient even taking into account some buffer room at the top and bottom of the battery's charge cycle. There's an option to buy a "power tank" that could be used to augment the range if the battery degrades too much. From reviews, the power seems fine for freeway commuting -- like most EVs it'll have more oomph at the low end than you might get from an ICE, but not as much power at speed. Still, seems like it would be sufficient.

The bike weighs 400 lbs. I'm not really sure if that's a lot or not. I'm tall, but fairly skinny (6', 155 lbs), so muscling around an unusually heavy bike would probably be a challenge.

The price ($14k, some tax credits available) isn't a big concern, but safety is a pretty huge one. As in, safety concerns are about 99% likely to kill the idea. It's really hard to make a sales pitch to my wife and daughter that "I'll save an hour a day, but will increase my risk of ending up in the hospital ten-fold." My brother in law ended up in the hospital when a van made a turn in front of his moped. He has a little brain damage from it, and is on disability now.

So, uh ... Yeah. That's gonna be a tougher hurdle to cross than I was really admitting to myself. Sure, I'd be commuting on freeway, where there's less potential for that sort of accident, but I'd be lane filtering which brings it's own set of risks.

Anyways, since I wrote this up already, might as well hit submit... I don't think I'll actually be getting a bike, unless I get a divorce to go with it. :/
 

Dan Homerick

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Dan, if I were in your position, I would be negotiating for your new employer to install a charging station for your Leaf as a condition of employment, instead.
That's not a bad idea. If the interview goes well, I'll bring it up. On the other hand, I could use lack of charging as a excuse to buy that Model 3... :D

Since the motorcycle idea isn't likely to be viable, I'll probably see if I can shift my hours way early to dodge traffic. You have to hit the road by no later than 3:00 pm to see any savings from that around here, since so many other people have the same idea. Arriving to work early is never a problem, but the getting away early can be tough to pull off.

I've also thought about some sort of hybrid, where I cross a bridge via car, find someplace to park then take an e-bicycle to avoid the last 5 freeway miles that have the worst congestion. I doubt that'd be any safer than a motorcycle really, but it wouldn't bother my wife. Probably not any faster than just creeping along the freeway in the car, though.
 

Dan Homerick

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So, after all of my going back and forth about whether to get a cheaper BEV, or to get a motorcycle, or to buy a Pacifica now and replace the Leaf a few years from now... I finally ended up going for the Model 3. The decision to get a Leaf-replacement now rather than later was triggered by switching jobs, which brings a slightly longer commute with no potential for workplace charging (it's all street parking). A round-trip is barely within the Leaf's current range, but there's no way it'll make it come winter.

I made the plunge about a week ago, and this afternoon I received an email from Tesla stating:
In our last round of invitations to Model 3 reservation holders, we received an unusually high volume of orders. As a result, we now expect your car to be ready in July.
That puts delivery at 7-10 weeks away. With respect to the federal tax credit, July 1st is of course the beginning of Q3. Even if Tesla blows out their 200K limit this quarter, I'll certainly get the full credit. I do wonder if the email is a sign that they're to the point of delaying deliveries to control when the threshold is crossed. Everyone seems to expect them to do it, but I've been skeptical that they'd be able to get the timing right without impacting the quarter's results too much.
 

Dan Homerick

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Heh, I gotta admit I think the media in general is full of <redacted> and generally push a narrative, nothing more. In basically any topic I've touched where a general article has been published.. ugh.
That's been my experience as well.

The phrase "mainstream media" has been co-opted for political purposes, but some derision towards "non-specialist media" is justified. Anytime I've read or watched a news story by non-specialist media on a topic that I know well, it's been an embarrassment of mistakes, naivete (when honest), or blatent mischaracterization (at the less honest end of the scale).

I think it's generally at its worst when there's any hint of a "risk/safety" story to be told. Pollution, fires, car recalls, etc. A complete inability to understand statistics (particularly the importance of using relevant data), as well as no understanding of the difference between detectable concentrations and dangerous concentrations has frequently left me fuming.

That said, the said, the quality goes up significantly the farther you get away from the daily (or hourly) news cycle. Or, of course, if you turn to more specialist sites.
 

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I have a shopping question: I'm looking for a EV charger, but my situation is a bit atypical for home usage. I'll soon have two EVs that need charging, but I have no garage space and a single lane driveway (tandem parking). I'll be charging a Nissan Leaf (3.3 KW) and a long-range Model 3 (11.5 KW).

So I'm looking for a setup which:
  • Can be mounted standalone, rather than on a wall. That is, some form of pedestal is available.
  • Allows me to plug in both vehicles simultaneously.
  • Is rain-proof. This is California, so no harsh weather to deal with.
  • Blends in aesthetically. Most commercial chargers have high-visibility color schemes, which I don't want.
  • Reasonably priced
  • WiFi connectivity
  • (Optional) Advanced charging management.
Something from ChargePoint's CPF25 family is fairly representative of what I'm after in terms of specs. It couldn't charge the Model 3 at full speed (limited to 7.7 KW), but that's not a deal-breaker. Biggest concerns with the ChargePoint are the available color schemes and price, which are unknown at this point.
cpf25_ped_dual_23_th.jpg

Anyone else already head down this path and have any (USA-centric) recommendations?

Edit: Clipper Creek makes a "Universal" pedestal that can hold two chargers. It's interesting, although it seems a bit expensive, considering it's just a stand. It would allow me to have one Tesla plug, and one J1772 plug. Not sure that's worth caring about, though.
Model%20S%20%20Charging%20with%20Tesla%20and%20ClipperCreek%20on%20PMD-10R%20-%20Copy-800x800.jpg
 

Dan Homerick

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You'll probably have to upgrade the main service panel for that. $$$.


Eh, For the Tesla you need a 60A breaker for 48A of continuous charge. The 3.3kW charger would only need a 20A breaker. 80A over 2 circuits isn't a huge burden for most modern panels, which likely have 200A service.
In my case, I don't have a modern panel, nor 200A service. I'm starting with and almost entirely full panel from the 1950's, and 100A service. Since my panel is embedded in stucco, and thus not easily upgraded, my tentative plan is to have a subpanel installed, then run two underground circuits to where the chargers are going in.

Alternatively, dual port chargers often allow both ports to be fed by a single circuit and will manage the total load between the ports. In my case this would be valuable not so much to save room in the panel, but to ensure I don't trip the main breaker. Due to other electrical projects I want to do, I'm going to run out of room in just the main panel no matter what.

Being able to charge the Tesla at "full" speed is a want, not a need. My experience with measly 3.3KW charging was that it's been mostly fine. Stepping all the way up to 11.5KW (60 amp circuit required, 44 mph charge rate) would be nice, but doesn't bring a lot of value. That said, if I can swing it without requiring a $5K+ service upgrade, I'll be interested.
 

Dan Homerick

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I believe that I've previously mentioned here that, after much waffling, I decided to order a long range Model 3.

I picked it up this last Friday, and was able to take it on a 250 mile (roundtrip) trip this weekend as well as some around-town driving.

First impressions are pretty much OMFGWOWTHISISAMAZINGWHEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Ahem. I mean, they're positive. Granted, I've never owned anything "fancier" than a Miata, so I would probably be pretty impressed by any $55K car, but holy moly the 3 is quite a car. I'd seen a bunch of them driving around before but I hadn't had the opportunity to even sit in one (much less drive one) until the day I picked mine up. So, impressions. In order of when they come to mind:

1. The sparse dash is really nice. I love the look of it, and appreciate the extra visibility that the very low dash offers. I do wonder how well the wood finish will weather, and I was surprised to find the wood feels very, I dunno, "raw" -- it's not polished, sealed and glossed over, you can easily feel the wood grain.

2. The speedo thing is a total non-issue for me. It took all of 10 minutes driving it to be completely used to looking over for the speed instead of through the wheel. It's actually rather nice not needing to move my arm out of the way to peek at the speed, like I've needed to do with other cars.

3. The interior looks and feels great. It feels quite roomy and the seats are very comfortable. My only complaint is that there's an area that is designed to hold your phone at a good angle for you to see it while it's being charged. It works okay, but is a bit fiddly and if your phone slips off, it will drop into a deep storage cubby. But overall? Fantastic.

4. The touchscreen is a beauty. I like the UI, and the experience is like using a high-end tablet -- very responsive, bright, and no issues with glare. It makes my 2012's Leaf's touchscreen interface look like the utter piece of shit that it is.

5. The sound system is excellent, but I've never had complaints about the sound on any of the cars I've owned in the last 10 years. The streaming music is very nice, as is the ability to search for and play podcasts.

6. Using your phone as a key works well for my wife's phone, but doesn't with mine (Moto G 3rd gen). My phone has always been a bit flaky with its bluetooth connectivity, so I'm not exactly surprised. The phone/key thing is important enough that it's spurred me to upgrade my phone (new one arriving later this week).

7. It is very odd not having an on/off button for the car. I don't particularly miss needing to turn the car on, but just stepping out of the car and walking away while it's still on feels very weird.

8. Zoom zoom! I've previously said that going from a Leaf to the 3 would be like going from coffee to heroin. Now that I have it, I'd say that description was just about right. The Leaf always felt peppy and eager off the line and when at low speeds. It's fun, and I like it. The 3 on the other hand, is exactly like launching out of the station on a high-acceleration roller coaster. The combination of near-silence and forceful acceleration is a bit exhilarating. The throttle response is instantaneous, of course. The fastest that I spent any significant time cruising at was 85 mph, and it was very quiet and well-composed at that speed -- without the speedo telling me otherwise, it felt about like going 55 in the Leaf.

9. I've not had a chance to really push the handling, but first impressions put it right up there with my old Miata for being curve-friendly. Truth be told, I'll probably never really push the handling limits on this car -- the limits are clearly quite high, and while I used to throw my Miata around pretty aggressively at times, I'm older and wiser these days as well as more concerned with public safety. But there's no question that the 3 handles like a true-blooded sports car.

10. The screen will indicate when your front or rear bumper is getting close to an object, with audible alerts if you get too close. Once you get less than ~30 inches from something it shows a distance-remaining estimate. Very useful for negotiating tight spaces and the info is presented very intuitively.

11. Autopilot is great for highway trips. It's a fair bit like driving with a mostly-proficient student driver -- you want to pay attention, since it could do something stupid at any moment, but otherwise you don't need to do anything but sit there and watch it drive. I spent the majority of the 250 mile trip letting it drive, and as others have noticed, you really do feel less tired afterwards than you would otherwise. For night-driving in particular is was much nicer with Autopilot, since I spent more time shifting my focal distance and scanning the traffic around me. Very commonly when driving long distances at night my eyes would get very tired from fixating on the car ahead of me -- that was far less of an issue with Autopilot on.

12. It's a gorgeous car from most angles, though I can't say I'm a big fan of how the headlights look. In contrast, I think the Leaf is a totally fugly... but I didn't let that stop me from buying it. Looks are clearly low on my priority list, but being able to get a car that doesn't pollute, is fun to drive, comfortable, has nice tech features, and just happens to be gorgeous too? Couldn't ask for more.

The only bad thing about the car is that it's too expensive for a lot of people to afford. If they can sell something very close to what I've purchased, but starting at $35K, then they will be selling as many of these as they can make for many years to come.
 

Dan Homerick

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Random bit of math.

In California circa 2018, the overnight carbon intensity of our electricity is around 0.275 mTCO2/MWh or, if you prefer, 275 grams of CO2/KWh (bless you metric). During the day the CO2 intensity varies with season, but is around 130 gCO2/KWh in the spring, and somewhat higher in the other seasons -- though almost always lower than overnight values. On this nice clear, January day, it's at 205.

So, 130 to 275 gCO2/KWh. The best selling electric car in the US averages 0.270 KWh/mile, thus emitting 35 to 74 gCO2 / mile depending on when you charge.

A 2018 Toyota Camry (chosen as it's the best selling passenger car), in hybrid form (because I wouldn't even think of anything less) gets 52 MPG combined. A gallon of gas emits 8890 gCO2/gallon, thus emitting 170 gCO2 / mile. A non-hybrid Camry (with the 2.5 L engine) gets 34 MPG, or 260 gCO2/mile. A Chevy Silvarado, 445 gCO2/mile.

And, of course, an electric bicycle emits approximately 0 gCO2/mile, or close enough so as to not matter.

All numbers above are just the direct emissions. Without being too rigorous, I think it's safe to assume that the emissions associated with transporting natural gas to California are lower than those for oil transportation and refining, though significant methane leakage could certainly complicate the picture.

So, if you need a car, electric is clearly better. And clearly it's better to charge during the middle of the day, since the emissions are roughly half then.

Or does it matter? I'm not so sure it does, and that's because average emissions aren't the interesting thing. It's marginal emissions that really matter. When you start charging, how is the additional electricity that's required being generated? In almost all cases, it'll be via natural gas. The exception to that is if you charge during the early evening peak, when solar has quit for the day, and demand is at its highest. During those hours, California imports a lot of electricity, and furthermore, it imports enough that coal starts coming into the mix. California imports are a mix of natural gas fired and coal fired, but natural gas tend to be dispatched first for economic reasons, and most hours of the day there's relatively little coal generation feeding those imports. For example, when looking at CAISO's current emission values (midday) -- they don't break down the imports by generation type, unfortunately -- but I can see that the imports and our in-state natural gas have approximately the same intensity. Which is as expected, since imports are relatively low right now.

So, anyways, if you add an electric car, the added electricity load is going to be met with natural gas:

Natural gas GHG content – 117 lb/MMBtu --> 53070 g / 293 KWh --> 181 g/KWh --> 49 g/mile

Incidentally, for coal:
Coal GHG content – 208 lb/MMBtu --> 94347 g / 293 KWh --> 322 g/KWh --> 87 g/mile

Edit: I think I misinterpreted the above numbers for gas and coal. They need to be converted from thermal energy to electrical, using appropriate power plant efficiencies. There's a somewhat fuller explanation in a later post. </edit>

Hang on a sec...

And this is where I think I have to change my mind. California's average, overnight intensity is 275 g/KWh. That's a lot higher than natural gas's intensity of 181 g/KWh. That means that we're importing quite a bit of coal to meet our overnight demand. And, given that natural gas tends to dispatch first, that means that any additional overnight load is being met by ... pure coal.

Well, fuck. I'm driving a coal-powered car. Thanks to the Model 3 being supremely efficient it's still less carbon intensive than even a hybrid Camry (87 vs 170 g/mile). But, still.

So, it does matter if you charge midday vs overnight. Your additional load still won't be met with solar (we don't have enough yet), but at least it'll be met with natural gas instead of coal.

By the way, while I think the focus on marginal generation type is the most interesting for analyzing emissions, there are other considerations. Adding additional midday load may not get met with solar right now ... but it does help keep midday electricity prices from declining further, which helps keep the financials stable for deploying more solar.
 

Dan Homerick

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I need to make a correction to my earlier post. I believe that I was misinterpreting the numbers I cited here:
Natural gas GHG content – 117 lb/MMBtu --> 53070 g / 293 KWh --> 181 g/KWh --> 49 g/mile

Incidentally, for coal:
Coal GHG content – 208 lb/MMBtu --> 94347 g / 293 KWh --> 322 g/KWh --> 87 g/mile

It doesn't make sense that natural gas would emit 181 g/KWh, when CAISO's overall emission intensity was 205 g/KWh at a time will a lot of solar and low imports. I think that the numbers above must be for thermal energy, which also fits with them using a thermal unit in the original number. I don't have time right now to really dig into what the efficiency for natural gas and coal plants is, but it looks like a combined cycle gas turbine can get up to 60% efficient. I expect that coal plants are less efficient, especially older ones. But, for the sake of a quick correction, if we assume 60% for both, then:

Natural gas: 300 g/KWh --> 81 g/mile
Coal: 540 g/KWh -> 145 g/mile

Natural gas's 300 g/KWh puts it above CAISO's nighttime emission rate--which makes sense, because California has a fair amount of wind generation. This means that my conclusion that coal is being dispatched to meet overnight demand doesn't hold. It doesn't mean that coal isn't being dispatched as part of our imports! I just mean that we can't tell, without more info.

Sorry about a somewhat incomplete correction -- I just don't want the error to go unnoticed for any longer than necessary. I am still really curious to know what the marginal emissions are at different times of day, but I don't think it can be answered without more data.

P.S. It looks like this will probably have detailed info about power plant efficiencies, but I don't have time to dig in right now: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/eia923/
 

Dan Homerick

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I think that there is more concern about just how much of a Coal plants output is being bought and imported at any given time, since in-state Coal generation is very low. I know the plants don't vary their output much throughout the day, but the amount that a particular utility purchases for import certainly could.

Ultimately, its not a huge deal since that coal plant is still going to be running and putting out CO2 (and selling it to the highest bidder), but it can be interesting to evaluate one own CO2 footprint from this perspective.
I think marginal generation is more interesting than just evaluating one's own footprint. With the Model 3 reaching high volume production, and a high fraction of those sales being in California, there's a lot of new demand being added. "How is that demand being met? Is it being met in different ways during daytime or nighttime hours?" are, to me, very interesting questions! If regardless of the hour it's met with increasing natural gas, that's an interesting take-away. A naive analysis that just looks at average emissions would lead one to believe that the hour at which people are charging will affect emissions.

Edit: To expand on the reasons for my interest a bit, my local utility (PG&E) has a special electricity rate for EV owners. That rate is time of use based, and it moderately discourages midday charging. That, to me, is fairly surprising. The rate was created quite a few years back, in a time when there was far less solar on the grid then there is now -- is it just a holdover from when midday electricity was more expensive? Is the rate having a meaningful impact on emissions, by steering people towards nighttime charging? The Model 3 has enough battery capacity that many people could defer charging until midday on a weekend, if they chose to.
 

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Considering the off-peak vs peak rates are almost 1 to 4, I will say discouraging mid-day charging is more than moderately done. My understanding is that this is because of excess capacity late at night due to reduced usage (even on hot summer days it cools down at night)
I'm talking about midday, which is "part-peak" under PG&E's plan. Close to 1 to 2 for that. Not that I'm trying to defend PG&E's EV rate structure...
 

Dan Homerick

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I'm not sure in what context this was released, but VW has put out a pretty thorough slide deck talking about lifecycle CO2 emissions, and their plans for reducing them:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3997234 ... E-Mobility

To give credit where due, I saw this on Electek. Despite it being an unapologetic BEV fansite, they do have the wonderful habit of posting primary sources to scribd and then linking in their articles:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/15/volkswag ... roduction/

VW's plans are a little underwhelming at spots, especially if pay attention to where they're just talking about one factory, rather than all factories.

Still, there's a lot of good info in the deck, and it's feels like some sort of internal presentation about what they are going to do, rather than marketing fluff.
 

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60 was based on most chargers drawing 30/32 amp, with headroom.

But, it doesn’t matter...the Chevy dealership (and the electrician) told my mom that all she needs is the “cord that comes with the car and a special outlet” so that’s what she’s doing, and I’ve washed my hands of it. Guessing it means a 5-20 240v socket and the included EVSE.
It's nice to be prepared with a nice charging setup when the car arrives ... but honestly, I think hers is the right plan.

I drive a 55-mile round trip everyday, and I'm charging from a regular 15A/120V outlet (1.4 KW). It charges at a beastly 5 miles an hour. Been doing it for half a year now, and while it's not ideal, it's been fine.

In my case, overnight charging doesn't quite replenish daily use, since I only charge for 9 hours to take advantage of time-of-use electricity rates. On the weekend, it catches up.

If her daily milage is less than mine, she could keep using a regular outlet indefinitely. If she'll be charging with 20A/240V (3.8 KW), even better. Once she's driven it a bit, she'll better know what she really needs.

It's also nice to defer spending for charging infrastructure, since all-inclusive costs for buying a new car tend to be a bit higher than most people budget for. Delaying gives the bank account some time to sober up from its binger.
 

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I agree that the 66 ft^3 must be with seats folded flat. I did try thinking about how it could possibly be with seats upright, and how the volume could be distributed among the main back, a hidden lower back compartment, and the frunk. But each one would have to be huge to add up to 66. Something like 40 / 15 / 11.

If, unlike the Model 3, they give the non-dual motor version that extra space as cargo volume, then it's believable that the frunk could be quite a lot larger than in the 3. But that'd still require a massive amount of room in the back.

Makes far more sense that it's just a seats folded flat number. Believing that the Y could have more than 4x as much cargo volume as the 3's 15 ft^3 is surely just wishful thinking on my part.
 

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Meanwhile, I’m struggling with deciding whether or not I should drop $2k on the “Full Self Driving” update (from the EAP I bought with the car) that’s on sale until monday...
I bought it. I don't have high hopes, but I figure I'll get at least as much geek-entertainment out of experiencing Tesla's FSD efforts first-hand as I would out of a nice VR rig. Or a couple of overpriced iPhones.

And I think there's a non-zero chance that Tesla will actually deliver something amazing... eventually.

Also, my thinking about Tesla's FSD efforts shifted a bit when I realized that without LIDAR it's much harder to get really precise distance or velocity measurements... but that I don't think those are necessary. We humans are terrible at gauging distance and speed, but we just make up for it by being relatively cautious. A LIDAR equipped car might be able to do precision driving that a Tesla won't be able to match, but what of it?

I do think the lack of LIDAR will be a serious handicap for nighttime driving, though.

Anyways, that's starting to intrude on the other thread. Suffice it to say, I just bought FSD, but am as much curious what will be delivered as optimistic.
 

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Anyone have any experience with electrifying parking lots at multifamily dwellings? I appear to have volunteered to try and bring EV charging to our co-op in DC.

No one owns their parking spaces, they’re all rented from the co-op itself, which makes things easier.

The important thing, as far as I see it, is being able to get power to as many parking spaces as possible, and then just install chargers if and when someone wants one. What seems ridiculous is just putting in four or five chargers when there are 500ish flats and townhouses because that’s great for the first four or five people that get EVs and screws over everyone else who wants one at a later date.


That also means the co-op’s resources are spent on the electrical infrastructure and the individual is responsible for the charger which I think might cut down at least some arguments from the “fuck you don’t spend my boomer money on this green bullshit” contingent.
I've not planned EV charging for anywhere near that large of a project. The biggest I've done is a pair of chargers at my own house (did it DIY, for what that's worth). Still, since you asked...

Sooo much stuff will be site-specific. How many service drops do you have, at what amperage, and how are they distributed around the co-op? Do you have "garage" areas where it might be acceptable to run conduit (possibly empty for now) along a wall, or will you need to trench everything? What's the feasible budget for this year or phase?

If the budget for this phase is only $15K, the best path forward is going to look radically different than $100K, of course. If this is just a feasibility study, then the budget probably isn't set yet, right? Would figure in the ballpark of $1000 per EVSE (just for the hardware), since you're going to need more "commercial" features like power sharing and per-account billing. Figure another ~$500 to $1000 per charger for labor and material (conduit, wire, breakers), but good opportunities for reducing that with scale.
 

Dan Homerick

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On a non moderator note thanks for the info about the Leaf. My Dad mentioned a good point that my houses electrical system is damn near capacity and I should get an electrician to come out and see if it can even handle another circuit. So that may be the next hurdle to over come
If you're looking at 15-20 miles a day, you don't need a new circuit. Just plug it into a regular 15 amp outlet and charge overnight. Taking into account the derating for a "continuous" load, a regular outlet gives you 12amp * 120V = 1.4 KW. That's 4-5 miles per hour of charging.

Even if you decide you want faster charging, there's usually ways to make more room in your panel for a new circuit (see "tandem breakers"). Nighttime car charging doesn't tend to overlap with other major loads, so you don't really need to upgrade your service, in most cases.
 
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