ewelch":7cb1zai5 said:Okay, so it can try 8.2 billion per second. All a website had to do to foil that is to deny an more tries after 10 or so, no?
There is a difference between an algorithm being cryptographically secure and being brute force resistant. They exist for different purposes (and adaptive hash algorithms build upon the foundation of a cryptographically secure hash). MD5 would be an example of a hash algorithm that is no longer considered secure after attacks were devised that dramatically reduced the complexity of a collision attack. SHA-1 isn't recommended anymore either but that's separate from what you outline.No, SHA1 is not a secure hashing algorithm
Adaptive hashes usually support arbitrary slowdown (number of rounds can be selected as an input). The user can make them as slow or as fast as they wish based on the application needs, so it's not quite right to attach a single number. They can be made slower to keep a constant time in the face of increasing computational power, or faster if the tradeoff makes sense for a given system.But the benefit in improved security largely outweighs the investment, many security experts argue. Had LinkedIn engineers used Bcrypt, for example, Gosney would have been able to make fewer than 1,750 guesses per second.
FWIW, I think a number of OSes do have built-in methods. The UIs aren't going to be as good but they can still generate strong passwords. The Keychain application on OS X for example can generate strong passwords based on a number of criteria, and ships with every machine. While lacking the integration, built-in options are free and universally available.It's also important that a password not already be a part of the corpus of the hundreds of millions of codes already compiled in crackers' word lists, that it be randomly generated by a computer, and that it have a minimum of nine characters to make brute-force cracks infeasible. Since it's not uncommon for people to have dozens of accounts these days, the easiest way to put this advice into practice is to use program such as 1Password or PasswordSafe.
ewelch":2tmfpd3p said:Okay, so it can try 8.2 billion per second. All a website had to do to foil that is to deny an more tries after 10 or so, no?
The article didn't mention it but I assume the easiest way to determine what algorithm they used is by testing against a known password. As long as they can sign up for an account then it only takes seconds to determine what hash was used.
Ultimately I think a better solution would be use more multifactor systems combined with storage and interface standards to enable widespread automation.
DotMasta":2dj1npz1 said:intense stuff, great read. I'm glad i've switched to a 20+ character/symbol password, but it's a shame some sites don't let you use such long passwords...
As a bare minimum this would be a reasonable place to start. There is no reason in 2012 (or years ago for that matter) to not accept effectively arbitrary UTF-8.ewelch":1e938dru said:What I want is sites to stop telling us how to do our passwords. I want spaces and phrases, not random letters and numbers. But most don't allow spaces, and often they demand they be fewer than 16 characters.
Beyond that and what Bitweasil said, if attackers gain access to a password database it's often true that they'll also have been able to see the business logic. Algorithms aren't meant to be secret anyway so there's no point in wasting resources or adding complexity trying to hide it.evan_s":1e938dru said:The article didn't mention it but I assume the easiest way to determine what algorithm they used is by testing against a known password. As long as they can sign up for an account then it only takes seconds to determine what hash was used. Run your known password for your account through all the common hashes and find the one that matches.
Bitweasil":3d59t46o said:Ultimately I think a better solution would be use more multifactor systems combined with storage and interface standards to enable widespread automation.
Multifactor is good, as long as you don't have your storage systems for that hacked (see RSA).
I'm a big fan of the Google Multifactor auth system - it seems to be quite solidly done, and has a bit of a tech giant behind it (though that alone isn't proof that it's done right, Google seems to be pretty good with their security stuff lately, especially when integrated with Chrome).
Boskone":211lhfhk said:I would like to see a unified second-factor worked out. Multiple second-factors are a considerable physical inconvenience (where available at all), and frankly using my phone as a second factor is nearly as inconvenient; I like to ROM my phone, and every time I did with Blizzard I had to deauth my app, ROM it, reath, etc. It would be really nice to be able to have a single hardware token from a third party that all of the login sites (can) use.
As others have mentioned, you're misunderstanding the relationship here. The brute force approach isn't used to try to directly access the service or website in question; it's used to crack a hashed password after that information has been made available via other means (eg. database hacks).ewelch":39qxusl6 said:Okay, so it can try 8.2 billion per second. All a website had to do to foil that is to deny an more tries after 10 or so, no?
ewelch":3fphciof said:Okay, so it can try 8.2 billion per second. All a website had to do to foil that is to deny an more tries after 10 or so, no?
What I want is sites to stop telling us how to do our passwords. I want spaces and phrases, not random letters and numbers. But most don't allow spaces, and often they demand they be fewer than 16 characters.
How about a sentence with spaces and punctuation? Then let people write something only they would know with a mnemonic word to remind them what it is?
Canageek":1jc10wtq said:I'm wary of password managers; What happens if my harddrive crashes, or that webservice goes down? All of a sudden I'm locked out of everything.
Canageek":1j5ad124 said:I'm wary of password managers; What happens if my harddrive crashes, or that webservice goes down? All of a sudden I'm locked out of everything.
My compromise has been using a few, not very strong passwords for the dozens of webfora and such I am on, that don't have money involved. Then unique, long, hard to remember passwords for anything that remembers my credit card, involves money or my identify.
Is this a bad idea, or an ok compromise?
TunnelBear":2cqpzkln said:I like the topic, length and technical depth.
That allowed him to recover the password in question by appending each word in his list to every other word in the list. The technique is simple enough to do, although it increases the number of required guesses dramatically—from about 26 million, assuming the dictionary Redman uses most often, to about 676 million.
VisibleUsername":35xbl52d said:Should any of these issues receive the same detailed examination as the password itself?
clubside":3kcc5w3n said:I apologize if I missed it in the article, but is there a best practice for a site to store passwords given all this new information?
I'm about to launch a new site which will allow both user registrations and Facebook/Twitter sign-ups. Obviously I don't have to do anything with the third-party authentication, but for users who choose a new registration, if I'm running PHP and planning on storing an email address and password in a database what would be the best practice?
Braumin":1l90ipa8 said:Password managers are really the only solution here. You need one great password and it takes care of the rest.
vipervenom37":289posup said:I would like the author to address the xkcd.com comic on the subject: http://xkcd.com/936/
I tend to generate passwords by taking the first letter from each word in a somewhat nonsense sentence (i.e., rather than famous quotes) - it seems like that would also be a good way to get into the uncracked percentage in these major breaches.
I'm sure there are also other rules/techniques/strategies for generating a password that you have to remember that would reduce crackability, and I think it would be helpful to share those since it's more likely to get Joe Blow from accounting to remember correcthorsebatterystaple than it is to get him to a use a password program.
xoa":mkgj6ueq said:Ultimately I think a better solution would be use more multifactor systems combined with storage and interface standards to enable widespread automation. That would simultaneously give people more security while being more convenient (and in this case the two go hand in hand). I hope Ars does a survey of options relating to that in the future.
mmaroti":2vt9pul1 said:Braumin":2vt9pul1 said:Password managers are really the only solution here. You need one great password and it takes care of the rest.
No, password managers are not the solution: if someone gets the master file and able to crack it, then they will be able to access all of your passwords.
You should NOT store passwords on your local file, but store very strong random numbers and combine that with your weak password and submit those to the website. This way an attacker cannot run brute force tests without working through the site where the password would be useful.
Unfortunately the password managers are providing convenience (you do not have to type in passwords for various websites), instead they should improve security (you still have to type in your password, but that can be week and will be combined with something strong).